User talk:BIPU

Lets talk about energy
Now I'm back home again :), I would like to put some economic discussions in order to get a bit more economic realism for our beloved FW.

The first thing I want to talk about is energy. If we review the wikis of our countries, we can see at first glance that none of us use current energy sources. That's good because we worked (not all) explanations very interesting technology, but we have not always taken into account that everything has a cost. One of the biggest problems of FW is that we do not usually take into account what things cost, and that unfortunately is a fundamental component in the viability of any technology.

Have a look to this REAL WORLD numbers about the construction cost per KW from different types of power plants: (Currency in Euros €)

- Wind power => 1300 €/KW. A typical wind mill may vary from 1.5 to 3 MW, so you need about 500 windmills and a windy day to get the production of a fossil or nuclear plant. Windmills can be a help but not the main energy source of a nation.

- Solar power => 4000 €/KW The biggest solar plant in the world is near Sevilla, Spain, and its output is about 300MW with a surface of 3 millions of square metres.

- Fossil fuel plant => 900 €/KW ¡¡Great!!, but CO2 is a problem :(

- 3rd Gen. Fission Plant => From 3000 to 6000 €/KW deppending on the country laws about security, waste treatment, insurance, special taxes, etc. A typical plant is about 1000MW, so the cost of a plant could be from 3 to 6 billions of euros.

Now, lets have a look to FW:

- Everett says that almost all its energy is from FUSION reactors. Ok, how much a fusion reactor can cost? Lets be imaginative... Think in a 1000MW plant... 10 billions?? Even if the cost is similar to curren fision ones, 6 billions is a huge amount of money. Everett can afford it, sure EAF can... but.... more?? Reaaly your nation can turn off your fossil plants and built new ones? Have a look to what an industrialized nation needs in terms of electricity. (And of course you have to take into account that this kind of thechnology is not the one you can get searching in Google, so you can not do it by yourself.)

- I cant value in € the kind of things that my friend Gatemonger has writen about energy in FGC, so lets go to South America :) South America talks about solar energy. Lets do a non detailed number. BRASIL produces 450 millions of MW so with solar plants of 300MW would need 1.5 millions of plants (I remember you that we are talking of plants sized as the biggest in the world). 1.5 millions of plants and 1200 millions of € per plant is a number that I dont want to write but I'm afraid that is a number that Brasil cant afford. :) (And I'm afraid that there is not physical space to put all those solar panels.)

What I search with this reflexions is that we have to reconsider a FW without oil and coal becouse even if we have the technology we dont have de money to change the energy production in 2011. Lets consider some big powers with an important % of production with innovative sources but we have to assume that most nations have to be oil and coal deppendants in an important %.

We can do some cool things with coal, have a look to my IGCC plants. An interesting and cheap technology for those nations with huge ammounts of coal and enviromental conciencie.

Considering this, we can think in energy as a matter of roleplaying. If all we are autonomous in energy, arms, etc. the game becomes bored.--BIPU 00:00, April 3, 2011 (UTC)

I was about to introduce us all to duodenum energy. I just havn't had the time, but it works like this;
 * Put liquid deuterium in titanium container below water
 * add many neutrons to unbalance
 * COMBUSTION! heats water
 * Water > steam = spinning turbine
 * Electricity Officially signed by Grand Marshall MineCraftian ( for more please see Talk or Contributions) 08:24, April 3, 2011 (UTC)

Cool :) Exactly as I said. A good technical development of the game. But... how much does it cost? How much has a nation to invest in order to get viability for such (or other in game) technology? How much does it cost to change the entire national production of electricity? All these things are what I'm talking about. I'm not discussing about technology now, I'm talking about MONEY :) and MONEY is the big mistake of FW becouse nobody think in it.

Please, dont think in my words as any kind of criticism becouse the only thing I want is to talk about FW economy. :)--BIPU 08:30, April 3, 2011 (UTC)

Liquid deuterium is an enhanced form of hydrogen. You just simply filter it from water, and condense it. It would cost about 100k ($) to build a hydrogen collecting plant on a river. The amount of energy created from it is amazing, trust me. It could power about an area as large as Ireland (given the deuterium is evenly replaced each month). That would cost about 2 dollars per 10000 trips because of the truck deliering it. Cheap and It works :D. That is called progress. Officially signed by Grand Marshall MineCraftian ( for more please see Talk or Contributions) 08:36, April 3, 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry becouse I said that I didnt wanted to talk about technology, byt I'm afraid I cant. Are you sure that hydrogen can be obtained filtered from water? Please... Anybody with a basic chem knowledge knows that the only way to separate hydrogen from water is using electrolisys that is a process where you put a HUGE ammount of electricity to obtain hydrogen. After that, you have to put a new ammount of energy (and an expensive process) to get deuterium. I'm sorry, but 100k is less than an engineer earns for designing the plant.

Deuterium, neutrons, etc. are not such things that you can buy in a supermarket. The steam circuit or the turbine cost equal for any type of power plant becouse they are basically the same and I can tell you that they cost much much much much more than 100k. 100k is one third of the cost of my house and I'm not rich. I'm only a simple engineer. :) --BIPU 09:34, April 3, 2011 (UTC)

hmmmm that is why we overtax our people XD. No, really I don't know much about chemistry, but I don't know any other places with signifigant amounts of hydrogen. If you do, please tell me and my mind will conjure some way to get it. Officially signed by Grand Marshall MineCraftian ( for more please see Talk or Contributions) 09:45, April 3, 2011 (UTC)

Wait! I have it!!!! By the action of sodium on water you can create hydrogen. If i collect water and sodium, then hydrogen would be formed? I need a confirmation of this Officially signed by Grand Marshall MineCraftian ( for more please see Talk or Contributions) 09:57, April 3to dcxxxxx, 2011 (UTC)

The question is not how to obtain hydrogen. The question is how to obtain hydrogen without ruining your nation!!!! :) And now, we can return to my original post that was not about technology. It was about money. We need to maintain an international energy market (fossil fuels, nuclear tech, renewable tech, etc.) to play a game with a minimum of reality. I'm happy with this debate becouse this kind of things enrich our game.--BIPU 10:55, April 3, 2011 (UTC)

The energy market you speak of is still an important part of this nation's day-to-day operations. Fusion power's inhibitive costs make it not feasible for application outside of the two current applications, civil electricity and military propulsion. In my country, Cars still run on refined Petroleum, trains in the country still run on diesel, civil aircraft still run on petrol, and actually, there are still fossil fuel burning plants in the "Frontier". The country is not without traditional power sources, it is just that they are declining in importance, over time. A considerable portion of the national budget is spent on Development and Moderniztion, and in turn, most of these funds are spent on "Fusionization". I haven't done a detailed budgetary analysis of for my country, but if you so wish, it can be done. Woogers - talk 15:38, April 3, 2011 (UTC)

All the things relatives to Fusion in FW are well related. Nevertheless, nobody has talked about the cost of a Fusion Reactor. If we assume similar costs to the actual Fision reactors, the process of change the entire national electricity production to fusion power will be huge. I dont want to know a detailed budget of your economy, it is not what I want. What I want is that everybody knows that fusion reactors are only avaliables for a very short number of nations in FW. First of all becouse of dollars and second becouse I suppose that Everett is not willing to share their knowledge on wikileaks. Think that in the real world there are only five or six companies in the whole world with the knowledge to build a fision plant.--BIPU 20:12, April 3, 2011 (UTC)

There are a few technologies I can use to artificially decrease the cost of a fusion reactor, but 10 billion euros is probably the base cost. Woogers - talk 20:50, April 3, 2011 (UTC)

Ideas for future developments
I have a lot of things to to in Baltic Union, but I'm thinking in ask for a second nation too. :) I have some ideas that I want to share with you in order to know your opinion:

Canada
Playing Canada as is now in FW (without the Everett and Cascacia territories) could be very interesting.
 * Favourable, a huge amount of natural resources to develop (you know I kike it :))
 * Unfavourable, a small population that could be increased telling about the economic development...
 * Favourable, Canada is neighbor of BU and it will be logical a close relation

The spanish second civil war: New spanish nations (FORGET THIS BECOUSE WITH MY NEW NATION "Euskadi" THIS STUFF IS NOT VALID
I'm sure this coud enrich the game a lot and it will open a group of new nations to play and develop for other players. The idea (that I would develop) is that around 2006-2007 there were a number of events in Spain which ended in a civil war that Finally involves also to Portugal and Morocco. The result of that war 4 new nations emerge:
 * Catalunya (Catalonia)
 * Euskadi (Basque Country with parts in france)
 * Reino de Leon (The north west of the Iberian Peninsula With Some portuguese islands). I live in Leon!
 * Al Andalus (The south half of Spain and Portugal, The Canary Islands, Morocco and the Sahara.

I will develop the origins of the war, the war and the basic lines of the new nations. After that, any player can control any nation. (I would like to control one of them.

I'd be happy to help you implement that. I would like to take control of one. Kunarian 22:02, May 13, 2011 (UTC)

Next week I'm going to have a bit more time, so it is possible to continue with the war article. It would be great to count with you running one of the new nations.--BIPU 08:32, May 15, 2011 (UTC)

Oy
Oy - stay active this time pls! :D -Signed by Super Warmonkey, please refer to these pages for more: (talk • contribs) 12:45, March 13, 2012 (UTC)

I promise to stay as active as real life allowed me. lol Meanwhile, try to help me not becoming FW in a Dungeons & Dragons style world plenty of magic things. :)  --BIPU 15:01, March 13, 2012 (UTC)

FW is being restarted and realism increased. The nation you choose now will be permanent, so be sure of what you want. -Signed by Super Warmonkey, please refer to these pages for more: (talk • contribs) 15:36, March 13, 2012 (UTC)

You know that realism sounds great for me!!! --BIPU 16:02, March 13, 2012 (UTC)

Ladies and gentlemen: Euskadi
Well... I´m goin with my new nation, the Republic of Euskadi, Euskadiko Errepublica (basque) or simply Euskadi. The state of Euskadi was born in 1936 at the starting of the spanish civil war. During WWII the frech basque territories were annexed as well as some french colonies. (I will develop this in Euskadi History).

Since that days, Euskadi has grown as a modern and democratic nation able to compensate its small size with an extraordinary technical and economical development based in science and engineering as well as some natural resources in the mainland and specially in the overseas territories.

For those that dont know about me, I like a realistic style of playing assuming that this is FW and there are a lot of "future" things. Anyway, I allways say that future does not mean magic and there are things that can not be. :) Euskadi will be a powerful nation able to defend its interests but I dont want to be a world superpower. I like any kind of roleplaying and Euskadi will be open to RP, specially (but not only) economic RP.

Thank you to UP for allowing me to return and I hope to have a good RP with all you.

--BIPU 16:39, March 13, 2012 (UTC)

Welcome back, sort of. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 16:46, March 13, 2012 (UTC)

Euskadi
Uterrioristsbro? I'vent heard anything good about the Basque Country before, but that is because they want independence IRL and they are fighting for it. I presume you are from the Basque Country (I can tell by your natural ability to write the language), but that does not matter. What does matter, is that of the state of relations between Skandinavia (or more popular Scandinavia as some other users are calling) and Euskadi. So, any interesting proposals before I slap some random words on my foreign relations page? Synthic 10:38, March 15, 2012 (UTC)

Well.. I suppose you have heard only the bad things, but IRL, the Basque Country is full of good things. Self-determination is a legitimate idea but unfortunately there are bad people who take refuge in it to kill.

I'm half basque but I dont live there, although I travel to Euskadi IRL once or twice a month for work. I only know some basics about Euskara (the language) but I can ask my mom :)

About the relationships between our two nations, let me some days to develop the wiki basics and I will propose you some ideas. Anyway, Euskadi is allways open to RP. --BIPU 10:45, March 15, 2012 (UTC)

I know what kind of relacionship I want with your nation... I want a relationship with the Princess !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! --BIPU 11:22, March 15, 2012 (UTC)

They're both taken, but there is still that one Prince... :) Synthic 11:26, March 15, 2012 (UTC)

Budget
I've started half of the budgeting process. Revenues. At this moment, East Asia has receipts of 14,499,585,700,000¥ from the six revenue sources currently written in my articles. I'm 177,501,524,800,000¥ short of my goal. Have to find sources of new revenue. Or raise "taxes", at the risk of losing the incredibly low cost of living. Woogers - talk 11:27, March 17, 2012 (UTC)

As a liberal, I have to prevent you to raise taxes becouse I think that is allways the worse at the mid and long term. I have to go out now, but I promise to read about your budget and leave my comments. --BIPU 11:36, March 17, 2012 (UTC)

Liberal? Against raising taxes? That's absurd. But really, the taxes here are $172 on the low end and $525 on the high end per annum. That's cheap. Woogers - talk 12:02, March 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * No, it is far from absurd. We americans have corrupted the definition of "liberal" to mean "progressive". BIPU is probably referring to classical liberalism. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 12:09, March 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * lol  What you call "liberal" is really "socialist". Liberal is to put freedom over all, individual freedom over what the politicians call "common wellfare" and really means "their" wellfare. Liberal means "let me use my money, the money I earn with my job, to give wellfare to my children and dont expropiate my money to "your" charity. Using an american example, Ron Paul is a liberal. --BIPU 18:43, March 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Didn't he sign the wrong party application form then? -Signed by Super Warmonkey, please refer to these pages for more: (talk • contribs) [[Image:Flag of the Allied States of America.png|25px]] 18:47, March 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * I dont understand what you want to say --BIPU 18:48, March 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * You're saying Ron Paul is a liberal, yet he signed up and is running for president under the banner of the conservative party, as apposed to the liberal party. -Signed by Super Warmonkey, please refer to these pages for more: (talk • contribs) [[Image:Flag of the Allied States of America.png|25px]] 18:52, March 17, 2012 (UTC)

What you all call Liberal, we call Libertarian. They are different, in our eyes. In budget news, I'm ¥23 trillion short of my initial goal. Woogers - talk 18:58, March 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well.. I'm afraid it is a semantical question again :) Here the "liberals" are closest to right (not far right) parties than left parties specially in their economic policies. Nevertheless, in Europe all the parties (except the liberal-libertarian ones) are "socialist" at the end becouse all they want to preserve what they call "wellfare state" and this is what is strangling our economy.--BIPU 19:07, March 17, 2012 (UTC)

Woogers... Where do you have published your budget?? --BIPU 19:17, March 17, 2012 (UTC)

It's not published, yet. Its in a spreadsheet. I'm looking for more revenue sources before I move onto expenses. Woogers - talk 19:28, March 17, 2012 (UTC)

Give me an idea about what are you considering as incomes --BIPU 19:32, March 17, 2012 (UTC)

Public Services in the East Asian Federation, higher speeds, specialized processing power, or more storage space on the Integrated Defense Network, a center city congestion charge in the ten largest cities, tolls on all of the National Expressways, fares on Federation Railways, leasing and foreign corporate taxes in the Free Trade Zone, user fees on the Taoyuan Space Tether, interest on official development assistance loans to developing countries, and excise charges and tariffs on 93.7% of imports. That's what I have so far. I'm about ¥17 trillion of the goal I set. Woogers - talk 19:39, March 17, 2012 (UTC)

So.. do you have no tax? Have a look to this. (I dont know how about your french but it is one of the best budgetary summary I have foind in the Net):

--BIPU 22:16, March 17, 2012 (UTC)

I don't understand french at all. Woogers - talk 00:39, March 18, 2012 (UTC)

The British finance minister web page has a budget review, but it is quite larger. The adventage of the french one is that is very summarized. Have a look over there... maybe you can find a review from other nation in english. --BIPU 00:55, March 18, 2012 (UTC)

Couldn't find any more revenue, so started on expenses. Need some advice/help there. I'm still disappointed that I couldn't reach my revenue goal, but I got pretty close. Woogers - talk 12:09, March 18, 2012 (UTC)

Well... there are two ways to adjust the budget: More incomes or less expenses :) If you decided to maintain your taxes to the minimum you should cut especially your "social" spents. If you dont expropiate 40% of my salary, I will be able to pay my own things so the state dont have to put money for that. Cut on services as education or health. Personally I would prefer a government that allow me to do what I want with the money I earn. --BIPU 17:19, March 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * This is the goal. In exchange for the government not levying taxes, people pay more than they would in a traditional country for only the public services they need. In fact, the government makes more on tuition than it pays for education. I haven't started on healthcare yet. Only Defense, Education/Culture, Development, and Transport. Woogers - talk (Flag of Ivalice.pngFlag of the East Asian Federation.png) 22:37, March 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Perfect.. but... why are the government going to give "public services" even if they are paid ones? If you dont collect taxes, let the private enterprise providing services and reduce your "state machinery" to de minimum. --BIPU 22:54, March 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * I feel the state does a better job of providing a consistent education, being the same organization. Different companies providing public education would result in widely varying quality, which would be bad for the future. I've been thinking about privatising the railroads, but the excuse for now is that it's too critical to national security and trade. As for internet service, that's solidly under the category of run-by-the-state-because-of-national-security, because the IDN is an important part of SDO communications and command and control. All of the other public services that I can think of are privately operated, with the federal gov't distributing the funds paid by residents by prefecture, and retaining a portion for government operations. Woogers - talk (Flag of Ivalice.pngFlag of the East Asian Federation.png) 23:08, March 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * About the education, the state can (must) regulate the minimum contents of all educational levels at least until the university. Once these contents are regulate, any private educational company can do the job maintaining the quality. Really I think that private education is allways better than public one becouse of the competitivity. In a free educational market, you can choose a better school for your children if you want and this enhances the quality becouse no school wants to loose their clients. In a public system, you have to send your childrem to the school the state has assigned to you the school dont need to be a good one to get customers.--BIPU 23:20, March 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * About the railway, if you consider it a matter of security you can privatize the operation of the lines and maintain a state operation and maintenance of the infraestructure. See: Union National Rail Administration --BIPU 23:20, March 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * I still believe the state can provide a better education. I think that competition would hurt students' education, because companies will cut corners to improve margins. And no, under this system, schools aren't assigned. You can send your child to any school in the country, although it might become unreasonable for a kindergartner in say, Tokyo, to go to an elite school in Beijing. As per railways, a recent experiment of mine concluded that privitisation is actually bad for consumers. A trip in Britain (with its privatized rail operations) is more expensive and slower than a comparable trip in the United States (with its nationalized rail operations). Woogers - talk (Flag of Ivalice.pngFlag of the East Asian Federation.png) 23:25, March 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * About the railways, its obvious why State is better in the current system, taxation and regulation harm private industries, these need to be low for them to be able to prove better than state industries, the current system in the UK has medium tax and high regulation making it almost impossible for competition to flourish. Nationalised systems are less affected by regulation and not at all by taxation, making them superior in such situations however when you lower taxes and deregulate private groups come into their own. Kunarian 23:38, March 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * On Education, competition benefits the final or tertiary stages of education, the area that really decides your career choice and professional level. Privatisation on that area is good for that reason and for the reason that it is fairer on those with less wealth who rarely enter tertiary education and therefore will not be laden with the burden of tax to fund something that most of its attendees can afford. With primary and secondary, these should be done by the state as far as I can see, this way you can guarantee that everyone gets a good standard of education at a lower price, so that they will not be at a complete disadvantage for not having attended tertiary education. However to achieve this you must promote competition within the system. Kunarian 23:44, March 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Just my two cents on this rare piece of debate. Kunarian 23:44, March 18, 2012 (UTC)

Idea
I had an idea liked to your Esukadi nation. I was hoping to take over France and upon the declaration of Euskadi independence they come in to take control of Catalonia and Aragon. I was thinking perhaps there could be a war of Francoist Spain vs. Euskadi and France, you see. MMunson 02:02, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

It could be interesting but I see it later in time. After WWII France and Euskadi had some "tensions" becouse of Euskadi refused to return France the territories taken during WWII and Vicy France. I'm sure that this tensions become lower in a few years.

You can say that France went to help Catalonian independentists during the 60s or 70s (although in this case you should explain why instead of independence they are in France  lol ). In that case, it is possible that you could count with any kind of help from Euskadi. What do you think?? --BIPU 02:25, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

Are you going to abandon East Bulgaria?? --BIPU 02:28, March 19, 2012 (UTC)